Let me first quote a few facts, or so called myths. I do not possess any reliability or responsibility for the same.
The first Mughal Emperor Babar came to India in 1527AD, attacked the Hindu emperor of Chittodgadh. After winning the land of Ayodhya, Babar sent his general Mir Baqi to Ayodhya and made him the incharge of the region. Mir observed that Ayodhya had a big ancient Hindu temple of a great emperor and a kind human being, considered as God in Hinduism, Shri Ramchandra. To spread terror in the Hindu population, the temple was demolished and a mosque was built at the same location in the honour of the emperor Babar. The mosque was popularly known as Babri Masjid (Mosque), which was previously known as Masjid-e-Janmasthan (Mosque at the birthplace (of Shri Ram)).
The place was used by the Hindus as well as Muslims till 1885 for worshipping together. Where is that communal harmony now? It was a religious matter then, and it is a political matter now.
Till 1990, there was not much of a fuss about the issue.
6th December, 1992, Hindu leaders and volunteers, allegedly led by L.K. Advani, demolished the mosque and demanded the construction of temple arguing that if Muslims have sacred place in Mecca, why should Hindus not have a similar place in Ayodhya.
The argument seems justifiable, but actions don't. When the case was handled by the judiciary system, this action was certainly wrong.
Believing to what the historians say is right, even Babar's actions were not just, but taking revenge of something, happened more than 3 centuries before in an equally barbarian way seems to be the outcome of shortsighted thinking or selfish political motives.
Now, Ayodhya issue has grown much beyond Hinduism or Islam, it's been more about NDA and UPA, about BJP and INC, about minority and majority.
Politicians and bureaucrates have toiled to work out a feasible solution, but have failed. Probably because of the conservative, volatile and brainwashable mindset of Indians, rather Hindus and Muslims (Unfortunately today also people consider them Hindu or Muslim first and Indian later, if at all they do), and sluggish and pale judiciary.
I'll dare to propose a solution, which may seem outrageous, but it is the best if a neutral government really wants to do something.
How about building a government hospital on the disputed land? A hospital that treates poor Indians, and not Hindus or Muslims. If a Temple is made, some psycho Muslim leader may demolish it tomorrow, and if a Mosque is built, his/her Hindu counterpart may do the same.
It is not always about what is right and what is wrong, sometimes it is also about what is good and what is bad.
Wounds caused in 16th and 20th century are not reversible, then why should we try to deepen them instead of letting them heal?
Why don't we understand that no religion teaches to demolish some worship place and make a new one there, and if it teaches, it's not a religion.
If I can convince people of superiority of Humanity and compassion over Hinduism or Islam or any other religion, I'll consider myself the most successful person on earth.
A good idea proposed, Ashu... But well, don't get me wrong as i don't want to negate your opinion here. However, there are certain basic hypotheses that you have made here in coining your own version of the solution such as the thought of a so-called "Neutral" Government which in itself is probably an erroneous assumption in the current state of affairs. Both the major political opponents have been holding onto their own dens of votes. So, don't accept the required political will from them. The second thing that you may have missed out here is that there are not just these two parties who are involved into this incident. There are other "stake-holders" involved as well. Thus, even if the suggestion by you looks rosy and humanitarian in nature (thereby appreciating the noble idea of a hospital), practically and feasibly speaking, it may not be applicable in the current scenario... :))
ReplyDeleteWell, I've proposed an ideology. It seems impossible right now as you said, but my opinion above pertains to the situation :"HAD I BEEN THE PRIME MINISTER..."
ReplyDeleteIt's a nice essay to write, but I'd rather like to see it happen. What I have been trying to do with blogging is to bring out my ideas and share with people and thereby create an ideology having a strong base of faith.
I strongly believe, ideology will work. It may not work today, it may not work tomorrow, but it will work someday ONWARDS. If it has its roots deeper, it will continue to work.
Ashu I am totally agree with you..We have become trend follower. Whatever the matter is, We generally compare it with the so called "current scenario" and den will certainly say ah its not possible. the issue you have raised, or the ideology you have suggested, I will give a name "NAV-NIRMAN".
ReplyDeleteNothing is god or bad on this earth, everything is depends on your way of thinking. A mirror is having a dark half behind, But still front is shining like a star..We need to come out of history now. As As far as Indian History is concern- "History shouldn't Be Repeated, It should Be Created now.
Awesome take on a very thought provoking topic..
write on ashu. you are an eye opener..
Thanks.
ReplyDeleteI finally see the ideology getting approvals...
youre going nowhere out of these
ReplyDeleteWhy do you feel so?
ReplyDeleteThe reality is we are nothing more than a bunch of fake sentences and we cannot accept truth anytime. vary vary few people Love the country as a One piece.
ReplyDeleteThats our mentality right from hundreds of years. thats why we're ruled by british.
we Love to be devided and feel superior to our fellow nationals.
Agreed, very few people love the country and prioritize it.
ReplyDeleteBut, is that a reason enough for THE few to get discouraged, or is that an alarm for THE few to wake up and start working towards UNITY IN DIVERSITY?
I think, my point above is still not clear to many. I'm not trying to claim that results will shine tomorrow.
I am trying to imply that if we want to see INDIA shining, this is how we should go about doing things.
I hate, when people claim that Indian economy is shining or like "we are the next superpower", while sitting at a desk at Tea stall where a 6-7 year old kid comes to serve you two half cup tea. Then you kind in an abusive language ask him to bring some water. Not to mention we don't thank them for serving us ever ever. Because we're superior.
ReplyDeleteThen they argue with me that being an Indian why the hell i am supporting US views..... I simply reply that me being an American or an Indian cannot make a damn change in what the reality is.
Ashu see... Babri and other things are not as much important as the things we need.... like... Humanity, Human rights, Kids education and poverty and Loving the country.
ReplyDeleteI fully agree to what you've said. You may even refer my blog on child labour, but I'll dare to label your approach as ESCAPISM.
ReplyDeleteRepeatedly I'm saying the same thing.
If my house is dirty and the neighbours' is clean; I don't go to the neighbours' place and live there.
I clean up mine and leave here.
What if India is poor?
What if there's child labour in India?
What if there's unemployment in India?
After all it is OUR India.
We only have to work towards betterment.
Don't ask me for logical answer here.
It's the belongingness that matters.
The same belongingness, that you have for your father, mother, siblings, friends etc.
And so far as Babri is concerned, if you pay attention, the solution strengthens national integrity, communal harmony and above all serves humanity only.
ReplyDeleteI know what you're saying But your solution is Not Realistic. Its just nice to speak like that.
ReplyDeleteand so the best way is to leave that thing as it is. We don't need to discuss that PAST. And we should not start a debate like whats justified a mosque or a temple or the third thing like a hospital.
gradually people will become less religious and they will forget about it. As rightnow no one remembers babri except on 6Dec or when the elections are when Politics has to remind the country about it.
That's where lies the problem.
ReplyDeleteA mosque or a temple is not a problem, it is a symbolism.
Try and understand the mentality behind it, which is faulty and needs attention.
Reality is mostly a sophisticated label entitled to laziness or lack of courage or lack of determination.
Had all the great people not thought out of the box, I and you would still be hunting for food and scrapping stones for fire.
Unless and until you want the change to happen, rather long the change to happen, change will never happen.
Giving up is probably not even the last thing one should think of.
Why not to let The Supreme Court decide what's Justified? What you want to say about it?
ReplyDeleteFine... Very good... But when will the supreme court decide anything? In 2500AD? It has already taken decades so far...
ReplyDelete//If I can convince people of superiority of Humanity and compassion over Hinduism or Islam
ReplyDeleteThis is like describing how colors are, to a blind
//people consider them Hindu or Muslim first and Indian later,
This mind set is relatively less in South India I guess
//How about building a government hospital on the disputed land?
It will not happen, even if it happens, conflict will come as whether it is Ram or Babar curing the disease
//why should we try to deepen them instead of letting them heal?
Then how to do politics?? Now a days, Politics becomes a synonym for mis-chieves... Time may come for oxford to change the meaning
Thats the System here... people follow it... the way we followed Stupid Schooling System...
ReplyDeleteAnd have you ever noticed that who ever in India talked about deviding people always got publicity and also a powerful position in Government or you can say in politics.
@ Sateesh I exactly agree with the person...
ReplyDeleteBut he even could not stop mentioning SOUTH INDIA... thats it...
My gentle request to readers:
ReplyDeletePlease do something other than cursing the politicians, what shall we get out of saying that?
Why do we always blame others rather than DOING something?
I would not agree to what Sateesh has written, even if it is like describing colors to the blind, I'd like to do it.
So far as the comment about South India is concerned, not generalizing my views to the whole South India, I'd say, in Chennai the problem is different. Hindu/Muslim may/may not be a problem, but Tamil/Non Tamil is certainly one.
http://ashutoshjani.blogspot.com/2009/07/integrity.html
Here I've proposed the idea of hospital to unite the nation, I'd request the readers not to start debating over regional issues as that will again divide the nation.
The idea proposed in the integrity post also leads towards unity.
So far as the comment goes "It will not happen, even if it happens, conflict will come as whether it is Ram or Babar curing the disease"; I am highly disappointed that I have to repeatedly say Be Positive.
Without even trying once, how the hell can you say it won't work, it's the height of negativity, pessimism, laziness and lack of responsible nature.
We can comment on politicians, but do we ever do enough research before voting? Or rather, do we even care to vote, leave alone bing into politics.
Remember one thing. When you point a finger towards someone, three of your own fingers are pointing towards you. Instead of always cursing others, why don't we DO something?
@Tausif
ReplyDeleteWe followed stupid schooling system, because we were kids then. Now we can make out what's good and what's bad.
You want to say, still we should keep our awareness and intelligence aside and live like a herd of sheep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But that is not the End.. i myself Followed a stupid College System Finally becoming a Doctor... Oh man....I can't tell you....
ReplyDelete@Tausif : But he even could not stop mentioning SOUTH INDIA... thats it...
ReplyDeleteI never meant that like a regional issue... but those words are out of my observation, nothing more than that...
@Ash : Without even trying once, how the hell can you say it won't work, it's the height of negativity, pessimism, laziness and lack of responsible nature.
I admit these words those point to me.
Ok, guys cool down. No more fights. Probably Tausif misinterpreted Sateesh. Let's not get into regional conflicts, when we are actually trying to resolve religious conflicts.
ReplyDeleteI actually didn't misinterpret him. I knew he didn't mean it. My Mistake.
ReplyDeleteBut what I want to say is that Everything is worthless until & unless people change their views.
Now If I come back to Main ayodhya point.
Constitution says that its illegal to demolish any religious place which was already existing before 1947.
Now Don't think that i'm justifying what Babur's army or anyone did or people are claiming they did.
Because Real islam says Humanity is the 1st thing. justice Equality and Brotherhood are three Pillars.
And a real muslim is not allowed to hurt anyone's reliigious or anyother type of feelings.
Now ashu If you're making Hospital, Isn't it against our constitution.? Isn't it Unjustice?
It personally doesn't bother me at all whatever you make there. Because I am not religious.
I have already one answer from you that you can't wait for the Supreme court that shows you don't have much faith in them. because Justice delayed is justice Denied.
Now you can easily say that Constitution has many inappropriate things which needs to be corrected. Because our constitution is a clone of British constitution.
Your suggestion of Hospital is just Unrealistic.
ReplyDeleteLike I demolish your house illegally and after two days I come up with the Idea that i'll make a hospital at that place.
Of course Advani's act was not justifiable, no doubts about that, but the mosque has been demolished, he may be punished for that along with several other companions, I'd rather say, they should be, so that such incidents are prevented.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of hospital doesn't justify the demolition or neither even belittles the crime, but once the damage is done, we should come up with best solution possible; and in my opinion the best solution to such a dispute would be this only, because it concerns not only Hindus or Muslims but humans as a whole.
After a read of this conversation what i can say or conclude is just way of thinking matters. What ashu said is apart of global protocols we humans have created. So many of us wont agree with him. But I always believe :-" If you cant love whom you can see, how can you love god whom you cant see". God is not a body with extreme power inside. He is our positivity. He is our attentiveness. There is no specifice place where you may find god. Temple, Mosque are places we have created. Statues of God are imagination not reality.
ReplyDeletea five year old baby boy, if he at sea-shore can built a Temple Or mosque with clay and if he can find his god in clay with no value, there is no need to go to such places i have mentioned above to find god.
Reality comes after responsibility and responsibility comes after humanity. And as far as ideology is concern-"there is no horizon which can stop you for it.
Tausif-I admire your thoughts-rather frustration. Dont take it as a Formatted static communal or religious issue. Think about what is best for Us-man kind. Temple Or Mosque will not help us in anyway.ask your self-"Is namaz dependant on a place?". Dont follow others . Its is important. Hospital was just a suggestion(If I am not wrong). create an animal century. Create A place with a tag "No man's land" will you agree with that? tell me. Its not about what supreme would say or what advani has said. It about what you believe and what you not.
Globalization is an intergation of positivity not possibility. that is what i believe.
I am sorry if you hurt but again its just a Thought sharing. I am not justifying.
@Maulik
ReplyDeleteGood compilation of thoughts.
Probably I missed on expressing few things (that you've mentioned above) because of the agony in me associated with numerous issues like this.
@Tausif
Feasibility of constitution asks for a separate blog, that's beyond the scope of this blog. We're humans, we have brains, sensibilities, intelligence, we may not blindly follow what was written 60 years back. mind you all, I'm not denying superiority of constitution, I'm demanding updates. Anyway, let's not discuss that here, I may write something on constitution someday.
See My arguement in the whole blog is... There is an Attitude Problem
ReplyDeleteSay like... Advani and supporters demolished Babri... In reward he became Dept.Prime Minister and a National Leader and a candidate for a prime minister. His party could rule the country for years on a simple Issue RAM MANDIR.
Narendra Modi became a superstar after Riots. He's gonna win even if he stands alone for the whole BJP in Gujarat.
Where's the Justice.?
The thing is not just about one mosque. I can show ashu two other mosques which are demolished and are still in the same condition from 2002. It's just a five minute distance from his house. But he won't ever see that.
So here I just want to say that attitude is the main problem here.
I face people telling me I'm not a real Indian if I don't sing Vande Mataram. Now I don't have any problem in singing that because AR RAhman's Vandemataram is right there on my desktop.
But why'd I need to prove to some corrupted politician that I Love iNDIA.
i don't care for politicians but when country's majority population make their view like that the thing really disappoints.
I'd point out here is many things Ashutosh writes here has no relations with Reality.
The things are just the way he thinks of... again its his blog so he can.
I am not getting one thing. If I'm not wrong, I've always condemned Advani's act and I still do. What he has done is undoubtedly wrong.
ReplyDeleteIn one more blog http://ashutoshjani.blogspot.com/2009/08/p.html you can see my opinion about riots incident, which was written by me much before this Ayodhya post.
When it comes to Narendra Modi, again I agree he goofed, but the reason he was and will be reelected is not riots, it's the growth and development. Look at the growth rates of Ahmedabad, Surat and Rajkot, they're growing by leaps and bounds. More than 95% of villages in Gujarat have uninterrupted 3 phase electricity supply 24*7. By river joining project and Sardar Sarovar Project, the age old problem of scarcity of water for domestic, industrial and irrigation use has been attended to. Gujarat is getting maximum foreign investment, probably 1/4th of the country.
And these developments were not exclusive to Hindus, it's for all the Gujaratis. That is the reason he is being reelected.
Again comes the issue of Vande Mataram. The translation of the whole song is dedicated to praise of our country. It compares the country to the mother and says that we bow before our mother. I don't see any reason for anyone not to sing the song. Vande Mataram is a small piece of a big poem which is devoted to goddess Durga and on recommendation of Shri Rabindranath Tagore, the religious lines were taken out from the poem so as to take care that it doesn't hurt any religious sentiments.
Here goes the English translation of Vande Mataram.
My obeisance to Mother India!
With flowing beneficial waters
Filled with choicest fruits
With Sandal scented winds
Green with the harvest
O mother! My obeisance to you!
Ecstatic moonlit nights
The plants blooming with flowers
Sweet speaker of sweet languages
Fount of blessings,
Mother, I salute you!
Prove that it hurts anyone. For further reading you may refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vande_mataram
I guess Tausif is talking about two mosques one in Bhattha and the other between Anjali and Vasna.
They were allegedly demolished by the Ex home minister Haren Pandya, and as you see he's dead, he has paid the price of his deeds.
I'm not supporting these demolitions, but neither do I agree to the mediocre attitude of getting into cat fights. Why should we be driven by a handful of idiot religious political leaders? May it be VHP, may it be SIMI. I'm against both. Both have done many wrong things.
What I've written is much much reality and that's the way I believe, this country can be pulled out from the ditch of religious narrowmindedness.
Mind you, No development is superior than Lives of Thousands People.
ReplyDeleteYou're being selfish that you can see the lines which touch you only.
If you are so desparate that you want to award all credit for development of Gujarat to your Chief Minister, you make me Wonder.
Gujarat was developing and will continue to develop whether there's Narendra Modi or there's no Narendra Modi.
Its a part of general Growth. Everyone who lives in Gujarat has some part in growth. I'm not mentioning only Gujaratis here..I say everyone from allover the country has a part in growth may be less or more or maybe some people had a negative part.
Gujarat was attracting investors from all over the world before riots. Riots discouraged investors and it slowed down. Now again we're back on the same track attracting investers or whatever you think is important and we're growing.
All Gujarat is responsible for the growth not just one person.
Or instead of you I'd rather go to find and thank some other people than these politicians who are Really Behind our Growth. Who are really deserving. Who really have a thinking in their mind for the development of the nation. Who do so much but get no credit. I'd thank all officers whose brain were behind all.
Like you I'm not going to be a part of the stupid crowd who'll just go to CM office and Congratulate CM for development.
I'd rather go to him and ask him the question that how is his plan for improving the life of ppoor farmers who suicide everyday in a bunch.
I don't understand your way of thinking ashu.
how can you take proud of Development and all the shit unless your system is able to improve normal person's life. Unless you can reduce poverty unless you bring the total numbers of farmers suicides to Zero. Unless you get a hundred percent literacy. Unless there's no kid to starve and Die. Unless everyone has all basic minimum needs.
I am sure that India secures an important place in the world. But its Nothing we can take proud of. We have a big part of world's population and we're full of resources. India and China has More TALENTED students than the total numbers of students in America. Thats our resource but we're really lame that we could never recognise it. and we'd always say that we're out of resources and American University has so much resources.{this is related to your comment about indian resources in the blog about people going abroad}
We have to find something that we can take proud of. Improve the basic life. Improve health care. now Here please don't go and show me the big hospitals like SAL and APPOLO and take proud of that. I am not interested in listening what facilities you can make available for Leaders and High Society public.
I'm asking what rural people can get out of it. [ I still don't mind if rich people have treatment in whatever great facilities they can afford, but I am surely not gonna include that in development]
They didn't get basic healthcare before twenty years and they are without healthcare rightnow.
Where's your development???? Where's change for them??
All That Glitter is Not Gold.
But Together we can change. I'm ready to forget about Babri you forget about RAm mandir. And let's care for Indian Population what really makes India.
I don't want to make this nation which has the biggest Military or a thousand Nuclear Missiles. Nor I'm interested to make it a SuperPower. What I want to do is "Improvement in Life of general Population of My Country."
I wish a day will come when our people will feel they are lucky they are born in India.
And of course here in "our people" I include From Top to bottom, from the richest to the poorest.
And you bringing up the topic of vandemataram uselessly.
ReplyDeleteHonestly speaking No muslim is allowed to sing that.
Because We cannot bow to anyone except Allah who's Eternal God For us.
Now thing about comparing with Mother. We cannot bow to our mother, nor father nor Our Prophet who's everything for being a muslim. We don't bow to any land, we don't bow to Makkah the biggest muslim place.
I mean thats the basic of islam just praying none except one God.
Now if I don't sing a song, you execute me.
But If one who breaks all laws fearlessly you'll accept him as a CM or Dept PM or you'll accept his 12 MLA's in Legislative Assembly.
No big party is going to protest it.
its all about Politics but you are bringing it down to us.
One Example:
ReplyDeleteMacaca controversy
Allen points to Webb aide S.R. Sidarth, referring to him as "Macaca."[39]Main article: United States Senate election in Virginia, 2006#Allen's Macaca controversy
See also: Macacawitz
On August 11, 2006, at a campaign stop in Breaks, Virginia, near the Kentucky border, Allen twice used the word macaca to refer to S.R. Sidarth, an Indian-American, who was filming the event as a "tracker" for the opposing Webb campaign. Macaca is generally used in francophone African nations, which led to speculation that Allen may have heard the epithet from his mother,[40] a Francophone who grew up in French-colonial Tunisia. Allen apologized and later said that he did not know the meaning of the word.[41] In 2008, The Washington Post speculated that, were it not for this single utterance, Allen would have been a strong candidate for the 2008 GOP presidential nomination.[42]
Comprehension: A senator[Ex-Governor] makes a racial comment and loses election and faces Rejection from Majority of Population.
No Matter how much development he did or No matter against who he did.
Preference was given for One's Right and his dignity.
Because he commented against an INDIAN who are very few in America in comparison with other races like white.
That Indian Person born in America is proud of that.
That's kind of Attitude can make any country.
A herd of donkeys led by a lion is better than a herd of lions led by a donkey.
ReplyDeleteThat's just a proverb.
Credit doesn't just go to the CM, each and everyone deserves it, but managing and organizing the resources is much important.
I would repeat, I've observed, Modi is a visionary, sorry to say but with most of the former chief ministers, this growth would not have been possible.
As I said water and electricity have reached even the smallest of villages, and actually farmer suicide rate has gone down to nil. I don't know whether you have any relatives in villages, but I have; and they have felt the difference. Literacy rate has improved (though not 100%). Per capita income, foreign investment have increased, percentage of people below poverty line have decreased. Development has reached villages, farmers and the poor.
This post is not meant to felicitate Narendra Modi, so I'll stop here.
I can't understand one thing. What fun people derive in abusing politicians? This is a general question, not regarding Modi. I wonder, what do we do but abusing politicians?
Are we really doing something to help the poor, the downtrodden?
NO.
Then how the hell can you curse politicians?
It's you, who chose not to go in politics, and elected someone. If that person is screwing up things, why do you shout, shout and shout?
Before asking for any right, tell me what duties you've done. Don't dare to point a finger at a politician, unless until you are sure of your integrity and commitment towards society. To serve the society you need not enter politics. There are thousands of ways to serve the country, but nobody wants to do it.
Everyone is busy living a selfish life and later they abuse politicians.
Better do something first and then ask for something.
So far as riots are concerned, I agree, that's a blackspot in the history of Gujarat, and Modi did make a mistake and did a wrong thing, but that doesn't mean, I won't appreciate him for the good things.
I appreciate him for the development and curse him for the riots. I would not mix up.
Then how exactly would you make India a good country by going to USA?
ReplyDeleteI Fully disagree with whatever you say.
ReplyDeleteSome haphazard lines on geographical map dont make that thing India for me.
For Me India is Indian Population [the people-My people]. And their Lives are important to me rather than Electricity or Development, No matter what religion or caste or state they belong to.
So I'm never going to appreciate any such person or anything of that person who is responsible for Killing of my thousand fellow Indians, again No matter what society they belonged to.
You can go and Enjoy Electricity and Water, but for me people and their lives are important.
When people loose their Loved ones nothing is more important to them what you keep counting as development.
You're question seem very lame to me.
And I already told you hundred times that "I" can't bring Change. It's always "WE" what can bring change.
And For that i already mentioned in previous comments. It's your fault that you could not get it. So read them again.
Again telling you that MY DREAM of Shining India is" All People Born in India will feel[not just say] they are Lucky to get born here.
"
So far as the things are concerned about me I don't think I was ever responsible for any harm to my MotherLand. I Loved it and I'm gonna Love it. I don't feel i have to prove anything to you or any other person.
And i already expected that my USA thing will show up here.
And I kind of finding these all discussion Useless and retard.
Because by the end of the day Nothing will happen to you but I may end up with the reward of being anti-social or an insecular muslim. Or so many things worse than that.
And you're talking about mixing up.... then you should remember that everything is connected.
Like you'll say you appreciate Hitlor for a strong army he made. But its his Mistake that he killed thousands jews... you call it a mistake???? It's a Crime and a very big crime against all humanity not just one caste.
And if you only expected that you'll get a loud apploud for nice things you've spoken of than I'm NOT the ONE.
You should notice the time now when I;m posting.
ReplyDeleteThese things may be just a blog for you but I'm kinda loosing sleep over it worrying about my country.
It's continuously the 3rd or 4th night when I'm up till five or even later in night just thinking about my country.
Though it doesn't hurt, what hurt is people will claim very easily that i don't love country if i don't sing certain words for them.
This all leadership and initiation thinking is not my job. I'm incapable of doing these. I'm no good for single damn thing whether I live here or not.
Let's Hope Tomorrow will be better. For all people over the world.
And all I came here, for not to change opinion of a crowd, I showed up here just for you only.
Otherwise i don't ever like to comment on people's opinion.
Ya, thanks for bringing the Hitler issue back. I've had discussions with plenty, don't remember whether I've discussed with you, but I used to say and I still say that Hitler was a great patriot, but not a good human, he murdered so many jews; that was a crime; but the patriotism in him was incomparable. He brought Germany from nowhere to the top of the world. Well, leave that discussion apart, that was not a part of our discussion at all.
ReplyDeleteYou said, "I" can't bring the change, "WE" can bring the change. Then why do you forget that it's a bunch of "I"s, that constitute "WE".
If each and every individual thinks that what can "I" do, nobody will initiate, and finally nothing will happen.
Remember one thing, it's never "WE" that initiates, it's always "I" that initiates, and it's "WE" that follows. So, don't wait to initiate. Just initiate. You'll find the followers or companions on its own.
I have just one message to convey. Why should anyone ever stop trying?
Coming back to Vande Mataram, I'd rather not go into the intricacies of religions, as I'm not clear about that myself, but it does look weird to me that you can't even bow to your country as a matter of respect and gratitude. Some excerpts from Wiki on the same.
Though a number of Muslim organizations and individuals have opposed Vande Mataram being used as a "national song" of India, citing many religious reasons, some Muslim personalities have admired and even praised Vande Mataram as the "National Song of India" . Arif Mohammed Khan, a former member of parliament for the Bharatiya Janata Party, wrote an Urdu translation of Vande Mataram which starts as Tasleemat, maan tasleemat.[9] In 2006, amidst the controversy of whether singing of the song in schools should be mandatory or optional, some Indian Muslims did show support for singing the song.[8]
All India Sunni Ulema Board on Sept 6, 2006, issued a fatwa that the Muslims can sing the first two verses of the song. The Board president Moulana Mufti Syed Shah Badruddin Qadri Aljeelani said that "If you bow at the feet of your mother with respect, it is not shirk but only respect."[10] Shia scholar and All India Muslim Personal Law Board vice-president Maulana Kalbe Sadiq stated on Sept 5, 2006 that scholars need to examine the term "vande." He asked, "Does it mean salutation or worship?"[11]
Here goes the Urdu translation, that can be understood much with the basic knowledge of Hindi.
Tasleemat, maan tasleemat
tu bhari hai meethe pani se
phal phoolon ki shadabi se
dakkin ki thandi hawaon se
faslon ki suhani fizaaon se
tasleemat, maan tasleemat
teri raaten roshan chand se
teri raunaq sabze faam se
teri pyar bhari muskan hai
teri meethi bahut zuban hai
teri banhon mein meri rahat hai
tere qadmon mein meri jannat hai
tasleemat, maan tasleemat -
- This is an attempt to translate Vande Mataram in easy spoken language. I wonder if those who declare the song anti-Islamic may have a look at this rendering in urdu and point out the line or portion they find objectionable?
The above statement is made by Arif Mohammed Khan (the one who beautifully translated the song).
So far as judgement is concerned, I'm not the kind of person who would judge a book by its cover, and I guess, if someone reads all the comments, even he/she wouldn't.
You're saying, you're not capable of leadership, there are endless tasks I can tell you. One life is not enough to see India shining (as per your dream). Then how can we waste that one life???
Again I'm coming back to the same point.
You may be poor in intelligence or money, never be poor in enthusiasm or motivation.
Things will change, if you want them to change and if you try to change them. Simply saying that I'm not good for anything, is pessimism and escapism, and I refuse to support that.
True, tomorrow will have to be better, I'd slightly modify the spelling.
ReplyDeleteInstead of better, I'd add "ed" as a suffix.
Tomorrow will have to be bettered.
It'll have to be bettered by us, and noone else.
I've also mentioned in the beginning that this is not just a passtime, and I'm trying to propose my ideologies on various issues, and getting them approved.
ReplyDeleteMany questions still remain unanswered
ReplyDeleteFor vandemataram my point is not certainly what you're mentioning.
ReplyDeleteI personally have no objection against anything.
And what I believe is Fatwa is Not wrong at it's place But to Give Such fatwa is definitely the one. When I saw people giving such fatwa on TV first thing what came in my mind was that " Its wrong"
I do things, as just TV and Movies are not allowed in islam but I watch TV.. Lying is not allowed I lie manytimes, there are so many things which are not allowed but I do.
My point is, why is anyone forced to give his proof of patriotism by singing a song.???
Is that the only thing what makes difference????
When I see hundreds of people who sing the same song and then Corrupt the country[Bravely in front of all] and they are way Loved by you and Myself the one who really loves the country and never did anything against it.. faces weird looks and allegations of people.
Let me mention something else too..
ReplyDeleteI vaguely remember there was some act or something passed in parliament and Former President kalam didn't sign it.
It was about Not Allowing any Criminal to stand in an Election. I appreciated dr.kalam for doing that. I guess you did the same too.
But the difference is I really meant it and you didn't.
A criminal is there who has charges of killing one person and something... You really want to stop him Standing in an Election and stop him being Elected.
But there's a one who is responsible for killing of ten thousands people rightaway, you appreciate him and support him being elected, just because the people died are not of your caste.
You think It's just his mistake..only because you didn't loose any of your family member in that...
I mean how Bias you can be...
I don't want to get into any political discussion.
But the moment you start appreciating Narendra modi for a LawFul and respectful position of a state or a moment you vote for him you loose your right to speak about PATRIOTISM.
You have no right to come up to me with any explanation about National Song or anything else.
You have No right to come up to me and talk about Integrity in India. You loose all of them.
Most people are like you... They see everything still they want to pretend like they saw nothing.
Make a Comparison----
Tell me Are you Gonna be a Supporter of RAj Thakarey if he wins election over his Marathi Issue and becomes a ChiefMinister of maharashtra and then does development for Mumbai... Are you gonna support him if he kills thousands Non Marathis there and reduce poverty in Mumbai or Remove slums there.....
Are you gonna appreciate???????
If you're then Surely I'm outside your group of WE
What Ashu wrote before is.....
"I guess Tausif is talking about two mosques one in Bhattha and the other between Anjali and Vasna.
They were allegedly demolished by the Ex home minister Haren Pandya, and as you see he's dead, he has paid the price of his deeds"
Do you think the word exactly you wrote are Showing any kind of "Justice..."!!!
Perhaps you've changed definition of justice.
Still I'm saying I don't think anyone gets anything by anyone's death.... I'm no happy for that.
I'm against that Mentality behind it.. the person need not be Killed but the Mentality and an Attitude of people really needs to be.
I would never mind if one psycho person Demolish one mosque, if one psycho person is responsiblr for riots, If still there is majority who have right Attitude. But I'd definitely mind when the same psycho person becomes a very lovable and respected and APPRECIABLE person for majority.
We Need to change Attitude.
@ Maulik- Yeah Definitely my words are gonna be full of frustration because I can see the country being devided each and everyday. I can see my rights being compromised each and every step. I can see that WE ARE GOING NOWHERE by our Attitude.
And Maulik If even a one sentence of Mine you can find that shows that I'm giving more priority to my religion than my country then I assure you I'll STOP writing here.
No view of mine makes anyone compromise with his own Rights. No view of mine is against development or success of this country. No view of mine are against any Patriotic Indian National.
Tausif,,, you are creating a very wrong picture in your mind.
ReplyDeleteSo far as Vande Mataram is concerned, I'd say, it's definitely not THE ONLY way to show that you're patriotic, but it's certainly one of the plenty.
My next words are not going to create any impact, as they come after yours, but still I'd make my stand clear. Out of all the religions I've known, I've not found any religion true to the core, and I do not bind myself to follow any. Hinduism, like any other religion has lots of flaws, so that doesn't make me follow it.
The above statements glorifying the mediocre and shallow words like YOUR CASTE and MY CASTE do not contain any weight, yet do seem offending. To prove again that I don't have biased thoughts, I'd like you to go through http://ashutoshjani.blogspot.com/2009/08/p.html without BIASED mindset.
Killing Haren Pandya was not a justice and it's not even proven that he was killed because of demolition of the mosques or any other issue. My perception was neutral (from a third person's point of view). He did a wrong thing, he suffered. As simple as that. Justice could have been done had he been alive. Had he been alive, he should have been punished, but that discussion is now meaningless, as he has died.
If you ask me about integrity and accuse me of not being secular, I've just one thing to say. I'm doing my very little for the society by working with the NGO in Chennai, which works for the underprivileged kids' education. When I prepare a set of details about various courses, I don't ask the kid what his/her religion is. When I donate the little amount I save from my monthly stipend, I don't ask the organizers whether the money will be used for AMAR, AKBAR or ANTHONY. When I see a poor old man asking me to help him cross the road, I don't ask him, which place of worship he goes.
Because these things don't matter to me. For me as a person, temple, mosque, church everything is useless. I am probably looking at a bigger picture of uniting people; but I guess despite my endless efforts, you're still misunderstanding me, that misunderstanding will go away only when you think of me as a human and as an Indian and not as a Hindu, but for that to happen, you've to clean up your mind from the prejudices and think neutrally.
One last suggestion.
Think twice before accusing anyone of anything. As you've written before this is not just a blog for you, but something more. For me it's even more. My blog is a part of me now.
I just wanted to make things simpler...
ReplyDeleteI just wanted you to understand values of Human Lives.
Atleast the Lives of our Fellow Indian Nationals very first.
When all will think so, There will Not be Issue bothering us Like Babri Issue or Riots.
Even If such issue arises We won't be taking the damage of Loosing Lives of thousaand fellowmen, won't be having thousand widows and orphans. Or atleast not Such persons Ruling us for years.
"Log toot Jaate he Ek ghar banane Me..Woh taras Nahi Khaate bastiya jalane Me"
Now,This sentence you'll hear hundred times in america.....United we Stand.
The same thing I say for our country.... "United We Stand".
This sentence is so simple yet so Meaningful.
Why not make a pledge.... We will try to protect interests of our fellow indians whatever extent we can do. All over the world.
We won't ever ever Support Any Leadership which is deviding and Ruling. We simply won't appreciate them if they are doing things against our own people.
If others are not co-operating, atleast we both can take such pledge.
Our Religions may be different.
But our Nationality & MotherLand is definitely Not.
Our Religions are No superior to Our Country.
Simply they are inferior.
Yet I don't oppose anyone's right to follow any religion he chose... Everyone is free to do whatever he thinks is right. You or me not believing in their religion cannot make that thing FAKE. It;s important for them.... And Most Important is It's their Fundamental Right.
And when there's conflict WE WILL ALWAYS SUPPORT WHATS JUSTICE.
Now many people have question or rather anger against Me and their mind may be asking...."In all this Tausif has nothing to say about people who are responsible for terrorism and are Muslims"
I say I always condemn any kind of such activities. I don't want to say it like I've done geat job by condemning them.
I rather say it it should be kinda useless for me to say so... Because I and my parents travel from the same bus you travel... My parents check in to the same airoplane you check in....How can I not condemn such activities.????
I feel the same shock as you people feel over any terrorist activity... Still people would expect me to say somethings... So did I. Just to make them feel better.
We are a new Generation.....
Let's change our Attitude..... Thats the solution for Babri... Not just Babri but every Burning question of our country...
It really burns my blood and heart when I see today, people deviding our nation... and same person ruling us tomorrow....
I don't say it for any local area... I felt the same when I got to know that Raj thakrey got his 13 MLAs in....
I felt the same shock when an MLA got slapped for taking oath in National language in front of all world in State Assembly....while other members of the same house being Spectator for the same thing.... Let's just count... total there were 288 MLA's and only 13 of MLA's of Raj succeded in creating a mess and Insulting the whole country....
So where the problem lies?????????? Is it buried somewhere in Disputed Land at Ayodhya???? Simply Answer is NO.... Problem is Our Attitude....
Everything is worthless unless we change our Attitude..... And No one else can change your attitude except you yourself... And if you're changing it, you're changing for yourself Not for others....
I already told you I appreciate you for whatever you do for the Nation....
ReplyDeleteBut it doesn't mean that I have to agree with whatever you say... I just didn't enjoy to Mention YOUR CASTE and MINE... But you should also notice that I just didn't say that I also said that Family Members.... I just wanted to make you understand that Your view cannot be 100% right everytime...
I really got irritated when you say riot is a mistake..... It's not a just mistake when small kids loose their parents and rest of their lives are going to end up in an Orphan Home.... That changes the whole world for some and we just sitting safe in our houses have No damn right to comment about it... If you can't help them just please don't insult them...
See I'll always Stand for the justice even if it's against my own interests....
The same way I supported the movement by Medha Patkar... while all people around me went against it. What they saw was development... But No Matter People have rights to protect their Houses... It's their Fundamental right... If you can't offer them something better that they are willing to leave their village, you people have no right to demolish their houses.. If there's your house you support Medha but as you're the one who gets water because of them loosing house, you oppose medha?????
You don't allow Aamir's film to be released who support those people's fundamental right?????
I mean if you can't help them just please don't oppose them. Like you I'd also say I didn't know who people were living in that village... Amar Akbar or Anthony...
I hope I got to make you understand...I never meant to hurt you.. anyway...
I mean all these things are disappointing....
That finally made me decide that I am better AWAY....
I finally see you getting my point. I never said development at the cost of lives is good. That is bad. No doubts about that.
ReplyDeleteLet's not get into Medha Patkar issue. Rehabilitation work was not being done well till 2000, and only compensation was to be offered. Later Supreme Court had set up a monitoring committee, which was keeping a close check on rehabilitation, and the same was agreed by the governments of the three involved states. Once the rehabilitation was being done well, there was no reason to oppose the construction, as even the construction of dam was supposed to give life to millions of poor and hungry farmers, probably many more than the no. of people being DISPLACED (not killed). They were given accomodations and better than before; but Narmada Bachao Andolan stuck to its policy despite Supreme Court's intervention and assurance of proper rehabilitation.
Press Information Bureau's comment.
"The Narmada Bachao Andolan has rendered a yeoman`s service to the country by creating a high-level of awareness about the environmental and rehabilitation and relief aspects of Sardar Sarovar and other projects on the Narmada. But, after the court verdict it is incumbent on it to adopt a new role. Instead of `damning the dam` any longer, it could assume the role of vigilant observer to see that the resettlement work is as humane and painless as possible and that the environmental aspects are taken due care of".
I appreciate Medha Patkar's efforts to help the needy that were done before 2000, but her actions after that did nothing but to bring agony to millions of farmers' lives, who were eagerly waiting for water and electricity.
Take these words.
NEVER APPRECIATE OR CONDEMN A PERSON, BECAUSE LIFE IS DYNAMIC. BE DECISIVE ONLY ABOUT ACTIONS, AND NOT THE ACTORS.
Similarly, Laloo Prasad Yadav has done the scandal, that should be condemned, but he helped Indian Railways, that should be appreciated.
But I still cannot digest the statement
ReplyDelete"That finally made me decide that I am better AWAY...."
a very nice and quite healthy discussion...i got a chance to log onto your page after a long time... and well.. i was browsing through your older posts... there were lot many things going out of context... and there were lot many issues discussed in a bit immature manner... with probably threshold disgust... but nevertheless... all the arguments put up here on this particular post (both by you, ashu and tausif) were a good food for thought.. what i liked the most was that both of you were able to put up a rather justifiable and logical arguments... i hope more people come here and share their views and show their sensibilities... i have things to say on this issue which i feel would justify and explain a lot many doubts and apprehensions... will have a take on it some time in future.. maybe on some other topic like this...
ReplyDeleteby the way, i hope you may have read the book by Amartya Sen, The Argumentative Indian...!! haha... :) why and how can we not be less argumentative...!?! i wish that some like-minded people get together and then i will work towards proposing a firm, applicable and realistic model for solving a lot of such issues rather than just cribbing about things... !! :)
however, in all, the discussion was a good exercise for people living in brain-scarcity...!! :)
keep up the good work guys... good luck.. :) keep rocking... !